MGTOW in Low-Fertility Societies

Some of you might be aware of a phenomena known as MGTOW in which men slowly disconnect from society and have no intention or desire to fulfill traditional social roles or expectations. While the initial reasons behind this shift in developed countries might have been the loss of manufacturing jobs during the late-1980s coupled with the social and legal effects of feminism- that is no longer the case. MGTOW has often been characterized as ‘losers’ trying to justify their relative poverty and social ostracism. While I am not denying that the initial wave of MGTOWs might have done so out of necessity, it is clear that the ones who are going in that general direction now are a rather different and far more numerous group.

But before we go there, lets us quickly talk about why the impact of MGTOW was rather limited through most of human history and pre-history. As I have said before, societies where the average woman could expect more than three of her kids to reach adulthood functioned under a very different dynamic from those where women has replacement to sub-replacement fertility. Under the zero-sum conditions and mentalities that have characterized humans throughout their history, extra kids were just more fodder for the machine. High fertility rates ensured an endless supply of morons to scam, abuse, work to death and generally try to cover systemic mistakes. In such societies, a man who went MGTOW was not particularly missed and often quickly forgotten as the other human apes went about living their sad, shitty and meaningless lives. That plus the low-level of social organisation and technology meant that going MGTOW had almost no deleterious effects on wider society.

Things fundamentally changed once the average number of kids per woman dropped first below three and then under two. But why? What does sub-replacement fertility do to a society as far as it ability to function under the old scheme is concerned? The answer lies in the rapidly growing divergence between old assumptions and reality. Under the old assumptions (also known as culture and tradition) young people were disposable widgets who could be used, abused, scammed and exploited to levels that are fundamentally incompatible with civil society. The so-called ‘losers’ could be rapidly replaced with fresh and naive morons so that the cycle could on and on- with periodic disruptions such as war and pandemics.

But as the industrial revolution spread and changed societies all over the world, the underlying assumptions started changing. Initially there was a population explosion as technology increased the number of kids who would survive to adulthood. However within a generation of two, most people caught on to the changes and started having fewer and fewer kids. This reduction in fertility is now global and even ‘extra-religious’ middle-eastern countries have rates below three– something that would be unthinkable even two decades ago.

But what does all of this have to do with MGTOW? How do men slowly dropping out of society and traditional expectations affect the system at large?

The answer lies in understanding the principal delusions and main belief under which all societies operate. All societies are based around the idea that world around them is in some sort of stable and ‘natural’ equilibrium that is very hard to disrupt. While most people can accept the idea that a comet hitting earth or something along those lines will change their ‘reality’ forever, they are largely and willfully blind to less dramatic and slower changes in the conditions which make their ‘reality’ appear stable. The vast majority of people, especially those who grew up in a previous era, believe that the world never really changed since their teens and twenties. In their mind the world of today is different from the one they grew up in largely because of better gadgets, pills, cars and some superficial social changes.

Consequently, patterns of social organization and functioning are still based on assumptions that may have been true 60 or even 40 years ago. But what did society look like four or six decades ago? The average fertility for one was still comfortably above replacement as were lifetime jobs and expectations of socio-economic progress for all. A lot of how society operates today is still based on the continued validity of these assumptions. The older morons still believe that most people will still marry, have kids, live in suburban houses and endure long commutes to their meaningless jobs by cars. While that assumption had some validity as long as the last surplus generation with some hope, aka Baby Boomers, were heavily represented in the working age group- that is no longer the case.

However a significant part of the economy is also dependent on these assumptions holding true- or at least not changing too quickly. Entire sectors of the economy such as the education, housing, financial planning etc are completely dependent on the status quo as are many not-so-obvious ones such as tax revenue estimates, electoral politics and many others that appear unconnected (physician remuneration) but are not. Even assumptions about how people will work or not work, behave or not behave, think or not think are based on the old models being true. Which brings us to one of main, if not the main, assumption underlying belief in continuity of the status quo.

All developed, and almost all developing, societies are grounded in the continuity of a very specific male mindset. It is best described as a scenario where the vast majority of guys will slave away, sacrifice and generally endure abuse for a reasonable chance at getting some mediocre pussy, some respect and children. While that scenario played out very well in the age before effective contraception, feminism, unstable jobs and social atomization- that is no longer the case. The average woman thinks she is too good for the average guy and can even profit from such behavior. While men from older generations still believe in the validity of the older ways, the younger ones clearly do not and hence are far less likely to be married or in LTRs. It is hard to believe something if you can see evidence to the contrary at every turn and almost none to support it.

Today the majority of men disengaging from society are young, well-educated and aware of their odds. They are not 50-something guys ruined by their divorce after decades of believing the lies that society told them. Nor are the younger bunch disengaging from society to live a hermit-like existence. They are still connected to society to some extent, but they are certainly not engaged with it. They are very distrustful of the system and don’t care about its future. They are best seen as cynical and informed opportunists who are acting in their own self-interest.

But how will this change affect society? Will women beg men to take them back to an earlier time? Will society recognize the folly of its ways? In my opinion neither women nor society will move in a direction as large groups of people are fundamentally incapable of non-viral behavior. They will always try to optimize for the short-term even if doing so was almost certain to cause long-term problems.

So how does widespread MGTOW among the younger generation enter into this equation? and how does it affect the possible outcomes?

To understand this, you have to look at how entities faced with declining long-term prospects shore up their short-term. The usual and almost certain response involves more extensive rent-seeking and exploitation in the short-term. It is therefore not surprising that school systems want more money, universities keep on raising their tution costs, cars and houses become more expensive, physicians and hospitals demand more money etc. They do so even when it is very obvious that those paying for it are increasingly unable to do so. But the belief in, and addiction to, growth is so entrenched that they would rather eat their seed corn than try to fix the problem.

There are, of course, longer-term limits to such behaviors based in reality rather than perception. Eating your seed corn, cannibalizing your future and crapping on your future supporters works only as there is an adequate supply of fresh suckers to replace the dead, burnt out and cynical ones. But is that a realistic option in a world with low-fertility rates? Modes of behavior that work when the average woman had over three kids who made it to adulthood just don’t work in a world where the average woman has less than two kids.. period. Even computerization and extensive automation do not solve the problems as machines do not consume or circulate money.

To summarize, MGTOW among the younger generation of men will destabilize the current system by inducing it to react in a way that increases its short-term gains while simultaneously destroying its longer-term viability.

What do you think? Comments?

  1. April 15, 2013 at 8:16 am

    Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
    MGTOW does have the potential of wrecking this shitty system.

  2. P Ray
    April 15, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Don’t forget that MGTOW also protects men against being counted responsible …
    for kids that aren’t his, abusive relationships that aren’t his, STDs that aren’t his, student loans that aren’t his, mental problems that aren’t his, student loans that aren’t his.
    Of course, I will hear that if a man “loves” a woman, he takes responsibility for her bad behaviour.
    I’ll believe that when women in long-term relationships, take responsibility for the guys’ bad behaviour (rather than “settling down” only after they can no longer stay on the “cock carousel”).

  3. webe
    April 15, 2013 at 4:52 pm

    It is hard to guage how dysfunctional systems are, that is dysfunctional in the literal sense that they cannot perform what they are there for. The fact that every new problem is again and again dealt with by new bouts of extra management efforts and more PR, and seldom actually by getting something done, is the writing on the wall. Count on a lot of projects simply not working, not engineered right, not performing within the cost parameters assumed.

    Of course there have always been things that “didn’t work properly” so an objective measure is hard to give. But at the level of “getting things done” and “making sure it works” we are probably going to see more and more stuff that doesn’t survive the trip from management/planning to reality. And with that, the material basis of society eroding imperceptibly at first, catastrophically later on.

  4. The Plague Doctor
    April 15, 2013 at 10:40 pm


    • P Ray
      April 17, 2013 at 1:27 am

      The remix version (all the offensive parts and her contradictions included):

  5. Ted
    April 16, 2013 at 8:14 am

    I wonder if part of the rise of MGTOW is the replacement of good wages with easy credit. Up until the 1970s, credit was hard to get – for companies and individuals. People were more careful with their money, since there was less of it.
    But, the Federal government found it was easier to borrow than to tax voters. Companies found it was easier to issue debt, since bond holders do not pay income tax on bond interest. This is in contrast to issuing new stock – since dividends are taxed, and stock holders want a say in the company. Bond holders have less say, so if a company issues millions of dollars of bonds, just to reward their top executives, so be it. That’s home Romney made his millions.
    So, average people see the government and companies living well off debt – why not me? Finance used to be limited to homes and cars. Now, you can finance appliances, surgeries, education. But, those debts come due. The government has flexibility when dealing with its debts, and large companies can discharge their debts in bankruptcy courts. But, individual households have far more restrictions and penalties in dealing with bankruptcy than companies.
    So, when economic conditions worsen – companies have tremendous flexibility in handling their debts. People do not. If you are an ordinary guy working a desk job, and you see that job security is just an exhibit in a museum, why would you take on those responsibilities, especially when you know that the modern economy is just a series of boom and bust cycles?
    Funny thing is, this is partly the 1%’s fault – they wanted a nation of docile workers. So, unions were weakened, pensions dropped. People are less likely to ask for a raise. But, since credit has become tougher – the 99% cannot consume as much as they used to. When ¾ of the economy is on based on consumer spending, and consumer buying power is going down – well, it seems to come crashing down.

    This is all without even considering the changing nature of the sexual marketplace – but, it can simply be said that an average man probably has a poorer selection of women than his counterpart of 40 years ago. More single mothers, more divorcees, more reformed sluts, more bitter women having to settle for average men.

  6. April 16, 2013 at 5:42 pm


    What do you think about your career choice and what would you study now if you were back in undegrad?

    I am not sure it would have made much difference.

    Say something negative about med school so I can soothe my wounded ego about switching out of premed to engineering because of grades.

    Doctors will soon be where lawyers are today.

    • April 16, 2013 at 10:15 pm

      Tell me your thoughts on

      “The other is a site for guys looking for mutually beneficial arrangements (college girls, single moms, etc). This is the true prize in my eyes. Check out”

      So it sounds like what you did before you used escorts.

      This website escorthorros is essentially an elaborate advertisement for the above website and ashley madison:

      The escort horrors blog basically says
      1) The guy got warts after BBBJ so he only does CBJ
      2) If you use escorts, use a rubber even for oral and then pay to blow on her face
      3) Guy probably gets paid by ashley madison and arrangemenfinders to advertise for them

    • hans
      April 16, 2013 at 10:20 pm

      Both on inadvertently managing to avoid the “med-schooling” aka pill-pusher/butcher indoctrination academy and having the right grades for an engineering education.

      Engineering and Informatics are about the only remaining STEM fields with next to no “scientific” dogma(BS) gumming up the works. Mainly because the work has to yield functioning solutions to REAL problems.

  7. April 17, 2013 at 9:04 am

    You take yourself way to seriously, man!

  8. John Rambo
    April 17, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    Arianna Pattek, a racist, man-hating feminist bitch

    In the above link, you will find evidence of her committing the CRIME of discrimination based on a man’s race.

    I have included her personal email, the email of her academic advisor, link to her Facebook account, link to her two blogs, and her pictures as well.

    I suggest you men write to her through her email, Facebook, and blogs, and tell her that you are reporting her for the CRIME of discrimination against men.

    American women are really evil bitches.

    • P Ray
      April 17, 2013 at 11:20 pm

      She turned down the chance of an international fee-paying student to attend.
      They pay some multiple of what the domestic students do, and keep courses affordable for locals.
      She’s going to get in trouble for losing the university some buckos … keep it coming John!

    • mackPUA
      April 19, 2013 at 3:46 am

      Great post john, more ppl need to know about criminals like this

  9. mackPUA
    April 19, 2013 at 3:49 am

    Brilliant post by PDA

    Welfare in a low fertility society wreaks havoc on men trying to build a family, or basic civilised behaviour

  10. P Ray
    April 20, 2013 at 3:44 am

    One of the reasons the Alpha guys are telling men to “man up” is so that they and the woman they play the in-out with …
    get compensated for each other’s choices, courtesy of the last idiot guy.
    The last idiot guy, gets stuck with a woman who is “secondhand, damaged goods” … who leans on him and grants him misery, and stays out of the alpha’s social sphere so he doesn’t get cockblocked …
    while the alpha gets a new woman, attracted by his “callous dumping”(actually, planned – since the woman found a chump to swallow her “pitiful” story)
    So DON’T try to take a woman off an alpha’s hands out of pity.
    Maybe the reason she is with him … is also because nobody else wanted to be the last idiot guy.

    • April 20, 2013 at 9:37 am

      hehe, I remember one time I got in an argument with a feminazi where I said as a never married man with no children, I wouldn’t get involved with a single mother or divorcee, she got really mad. Why should I be someone’s bailout plan? She said I was shaming motherhood. Remember she is part of a hate movement that wants instant abortion upon demand but then celebrates a scumbag like Hugo Schwyzer who brags about cuckolding another man. They will go on and on about how a womyn needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle but then go apeshit mad when a guy denies his utility via MGTOW. The hypocrisy is amazing…

      • P Ray
        April 20, 2013 at 10:10 am

        If she doesn’t have to give concessions to average guys,
        Why do average guys have to give concessions to washed-up leftovers?

  11. April 20, 2013 at 10:12 am

    P Ray :
    If she doesn’t have to give concessions to average guys,
    Why do average guys have to give concessions to washed-up leftovers?

    It’s all part of teh patriarchy dahrling…

    • April 23, 2013 at 6:51 am

      Stoner, did I not ask you to stay away from Diaboli? Looks like you are not serious about lowering your stress, hmmm?

  12. Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c)
    April 25, 2013 at 6:58 am

    I did a video notice to young men just recently.

    Young men are going to decide their own future. Most will make a disaster of it. Those who join the MBA will do ok.

    • John Rambo
      April 27, 2013 at 5:20 am

      Those who join MBA will lose their money to Peter Andrew Nolan: SCAM ARTIST!

  13. May 7, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    The short-term is all you can reasonably hope for given the instability around you.

  14. adrianninety
    June 2, 2013 at 4:14 am

    “In middle school we all think high school is gonna be like degrassi
    with drama and sex everywhere.

    – – – Then we get there and its just class after class with teachers
    that hate their jobs almost as much as they hate us.

    In high school we all think college is gonna be like projectX with wild parties
    and dorm room orgies. OR at least will prepare us for a well paid career
    and a better life than our parents.

    – – – Then we get there and everybody is sticking to their little cliques
    and almost no one is getting laid and there are no jobs waiting for us
    after graduation and we’ll have to move back in with our parents and
    it will take at a decade to pay off the student loans…if we’re lucky.

    In college we think clubbing will be like jersey shore with bathroom pulls
    and scoring a different girl every night. This time things will be different.

    – – – Then we get there and its a stinky musty sausage-fest with asshole
    bouncers and bitchy diva 4’s acting like 8’s and guys who have been
    rejected left and right just itching to pick a fight. Needless to say no one
    is getting laid in this situation.

    So no job, no sex, no friends no nothing. In this economy only the luckiest
    of us will get to match the quality of life of our parents generation.
    Almost none of us will match that of our grandparents.

    You go to work in some office you hate where things are tense and
    eye contact is avoided because brad got hit with a sexual harassment suit
    a few months ago for hugging a coworker the wrong way. You come home
    to an empty house where post on puahate all night then maybe rub one out
    before falling asleep on the couch, watching arrested development for the 100th time in a row.

    Then you see why the television had to lie to you all along. Because the truth is….reality sucks.”

    • P Ray
      June 2, 2013 at 8:51 pm

      You go to work in some office you hate where things are tense and
      eye contact is avoided because brad got hit with a sexual harassment suit
      a few months ago for hugging a coworker the wrong way. You come home
      to an empty house where post on puahate all night then maybe rub one out
      before falling asleep on the couch, watching arrested development for the 100th time in a row.

      Or you learn enough to get a job and realise the people you answer to have no real qualifications and just spend their time greasing palms and licking spread asscheeks, you say “f-that and f-you you clapped out loser who cannot go anywhere else!” and build your own business and then tell your customers where to go if they think you will give them for cheap what everyone else charges them dear for.

      Then, with jobs well done you get more recommendations and more customers, with down time you play videogames, get into flamewars and generally live a life without stupid people around (unless they’re paying) or contentious women around (only if they’re willing to drop trou).

      It works out in the end 🙂

    • EvilOne
      March 17, 2014 at 8:20 am

      Except A.D got tons of booty calls apart from his beloved hookers. As a one time poster Heo Hak said, hes dealing with luxury problems.

  15. mickay
    June 9, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    MGTOW is a way to go! I am advising all my friends about this rigged system and misery of LTR. Hope most will heed my advise.

  16. November 24, 2013 at 6:34 pm

    MGTOW for life

  17. santiago
    January 17, 2014 at 11:43 am


  18. ExitedTheMatrix
    March 17, 2014 at 5:54 am

    Marriage is for uninformed, naive, blue pill man, who will eventually be destroyed through divorce and subsequently become a red pill man. It’s a sad, sad cycle of male disposability.


    The Disposable Male

  19. P Ray
    March 4, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    Today the majority of men disengaging from society are young, well-educated and aware of their odds. They are not 50-something guys ruined by their divorce after decades of believing the lies that society told them. Nor are the younger bunch disengaging from society to live a hermit-like existence. They are still connected to society to some extent, but they are certainly not engaged with it. They are very distrustful of the system and don’t care about its future. They are best seen as cynical and informed opportunists who are acting in their own self-interest.
    Some CONservatives like Ergeniz and K C Sunbeam …
    like to say that “you have no MGTOW cred if you exploit your individual advantage, join us and shape the (white) future”.
    I have to reply, “the only thing you can do, is exploit my labour to get yourself ahead or keep the ponzi scheme going, no dice”.
    It seems even MGTOW and MRA is actually, WHITE MGTOW and MRA – they still want people of colour on the treadmill and cooperating with them with no payback. Funny idea.

    • John
      March 5, 2016 at 10:02 am

      Just go to 4chan, which has 25 million unique visitors a month (95 percent are men). So that’s at least 20 million young men which have basically gone MGTOW, in the sense that they don’t want to get married, don’t trust society, are openly anti-feminist, don’t trust women, and just want to stay young and have fun forever.

      This trend will only increase more and more. But women in general are completely blind and don’t see the massive anti-feminist backlash which is already well underway. Things are going to get pretty bad for women soon, most women under the age of 30 at present will never be able to find a husband.

      • P Ray
        March 5, 2016 at 1:42 pm

        In New Scientist of 2007, based on current projections the prediction is that 25% of all women born after 1975 would never be able to find a husband.

        Be that as it may, it still leaves us with 75% who can – meaning that … the awakening may take a long time, and …
        if those 25% are the uggo women, well … their inability to pair up isn’t taken seriously because the sisterhood … is only concerned with what happens to the queen bees.

        We shall see the outcome though. Remember that since men die earlier than women, older women in Australia are urged to become lesbians. Unfortunately, that also means we’ll see more feminism not less.

      • John
        March 6, 2016 at 5:10 pm

        In Germany, it already reached that level, 25% of women over the age of 40 have never had children. 25 percent of women who have never fulfilled their biological imperative and thus are mentally unstable. My friend who lives in Germany says that you can smell the desperation of the older women there from a mile away.

        Things are looking quite optimistic for men, especially for us red pilled men who have woken up and now we can avoid the dangers and traps that most men fall into. We can live as free men. There will always be beta males who refuse to wake up, and that’s fine, let them be the slaves that keep society running. But 10 percent of men who are intelligent will wake up and take a different path.

      • P Ray
        March 6, 2016 at 10:06 pm

        You may be able to smell their desperation … but that may not relax their standards or turn them into reasonable human beings – and it’s possible that any turn into a reasonable human being, is just a pragmatic decision: they might just be seeing how much they can get away with with the person they’re with (guy or girl doesn’t matter).
        Plus, I believe more females are undiagnosed psychopaths than males for 2 reasons:
        1. women find the criminally minded / acting very attractive and breed with them
        2. women are more commonly diagnosed / let off as histrionic personality disorder than narcisstic personality disorder.

        Remember, all the fertility clinics with sperm donors required to be Chad Thundercock – to my opinion, unless these, and superfantastic welfare for feckless women are removed – which is not bloody likely,
        all that is happening, is that the conflict is going private – women will drop out of regular interaction with men, in favour of Chad Thundercock sperm.

        The real issue here that is unpleasant to say, is when white people f*ck themselves, the world pays the price to fit in with the herd. It’s a problem, and unfortunately, since “technology comes with lifestyle / culture”, it’s going to spread. To say it another way, I have not noticed ancestor worship coming into vogue in Europe, for example.

        Britain’s largest sperm bank bans men with dyslexia, autism and ADHD from donating, triggering outrage over ‘eugenics’
        London Sperm Bank admits it screens men for ‘neurological conditions’
        These include dyslexia, ADHD, autism and Asperger’s syndrome
        Campaigners have accused the clinic of ‘eugenics’ – attempting to genetically improve the human race
        Fertility watchdog has launched investigation in light of the claims
        PUBLISHED: 17:18 GMT, 29 December 2015 | UPDATED: 18:32 GMT, 29 December 2015

      • P Ray
        March 6, 2016 at 10:10 pm

        Don’t forget, in the example and article given above,
        it is men who have to live up to a standard, not women
        I suppose even 1/10 uggos would be entitled to that service?

        How feminist (and thus either hostile or exploitative to men) a society is, is seen by how eligible men or women are towards certain privileges / entitlements / rights without having to pay for them in any way.

      • P Ray
        March 6, 2016 at 10:17 pm

        The other thing as well is …
        “If there are sperm donors, and you can choose which guy to make a child with” …
        “THEN where are the egg donors, I’m looking for Skye Ronelle Ferkinstad Stracke, Milla Jovovich, Michelle Keegan or Helen Flanagan’s eggs?”

  20. P Ray
    March 8, 2016 at 4:29 am

    This has just come up:
    Caelainn Barr and Shiv Malik
    Monday 7 March 2016 11.00 GMT Last modified on Tuesday 8 March 2016 11.29 GMT

    Share on Pinterest Share on LinkedIn Share on Google+
    Save for later
    The full scale of the financial rout facing millennials is revealed today in exclusive new data that points to a perfect storm of factors besetting an entire generation of young adults around the world.

    A combination of debt, joblessness, globalisation, demographics and rising house prices is depressing the incomes and prospects of millions of young people across the developed world, resulting in unprecedented inequality between generations.

    A Guardian investigation into the prospects of millennials – those born between 1980 and the mid-90s, and often otherwise known as Generation Y – has found they are increasingly being cut out of the wealth generated in western societies.

    Where 30 years ago young adults used to earn more than national averages, now in many countries they have slumped to earning as much as 20% below their average compatriot. Pensioners by comparison have seen income soar.

    And the reddit thread:
    spaceythrowaway 1815 points 22 hours ago
    Fuck me, I’m from India and a fucking 3 bedroom apartment near my workplace will cost me 40 times my salary

    [–]MrWilsonAndMrHeath 1528 points 21 hours ago
    I’m in London. A three bedroom flat near my workplace will…. I’ll just go cry in the corner.

    V1ct0rMD 295 points 21 hours ago
    Moldova here, 1-room apartment, 100 times my (monthly) salary. And my salary is 1.5 higher than the country average salary. FML

    TheApatheist 317 points 22 hours ago
    The cleaning lady of my parent’s small diner owns a €300k house: she cleans, he was a janitor, neither inherited much. Today that’s just impossible for a college graduate to buy without an inheritance (or two)

    My comment?
    I suppose many in the MRA/MGTOW movement (really, WHITE CONservatives wanting the ride to go on) … will say “You young people have it so easy, back in my day we used to … segue into Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen skit …”
    Four well-dressed men sitting together at a vacation resort.
    Michael Palin: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.

    Graham Chapman: Nothing like a good glass of Chateau de Chassilier wine, ay Gessiah?

    Terry Gilliam: You’re right there Obediah.

    Eric Idle: Who’d a thought thirty years ago we’d all be sittin’ here drinking Chateau de Chassilier wine?

    MP: Aye. In them days, we’d a’ been glad to have the price of a cup o’ tea.

    GC: A cup ‘ COLD tea.

    EI: Without milk or sugar.

    TG: OR tea!

    MP: In a filthy, cracked cup.

    EI: We never used to have a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.

    GC: The best WE could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

    TG: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.

    MP: Aye. BECAUSE we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, “Money doesn’t buy you happiness.”

    EI: ‘E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN’. We used to live in this tiiiny old house, with greaaaaat big holes in the roof.

    GC: House? You were lucky to have a HOUSE! We used to live in one room, all hundred and twenty-six of us, no furniture. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING!

    TG: You were lucky to have a ROOM! *We* used to have to live in a corridor!

    MP: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin’ in a corridor! Woulda’ been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph.

    EI: Well when I say “house” it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpolin, but it was a house to US.

    GC: We were evicted from *our* hole in the ground; we had to go and live in a lake!

    TG: You were lucky to have a LAKE! There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road.

    MP: Cardboard box?

    TG: Aye.

    MP: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o’clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out. When we got home, out Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt!

    GC: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at three o’clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work at the mill every day for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!

    TG: Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o’clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

    EI: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o’clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, (pause for laughter), eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing “Hallelujah.”

    MP: But you try and tell the young people today that… and they won’t believe ya’.

    ALL: Nope, nope..

    • P Ray
      March 8, 2016 at 5:20 am

      And another interesting response from that thread:

      [–]mixiemixie 8 points 17 hours ago
      Why do you ask?
      He/She probably wants to blame you for being broke. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and what not.
      Seriously. I see a lot of victim blaming mentality in this thread. I’m not sure if its coming from boomers themselves or from younger people who have been fortunate enough to live in a tiny pocket of the US that has managed to weather the shitty economy.

      [–]The_Real_Chomp_Chomp 10 points 15 hours ago*
      Lol, seriously? How deluded are people that they think the economy is a result of millennials not working hard enough? We have a retirement system in play that is going to fail right after the GenXers soak up the last little bit, because it’s a system that requires a constant influx of new payers. That’s the textbook definition of a Ponzi scheme.
      The system might have actually worked a bit longer, but the baby boomers created a series of anti regulation and outright unconstitutional laws that eliminate wage regulation sand helped keep money pooled at the top–so the people who could have kept the system going a bit longer with their own children are choosing not to have kids because it’s too expensive. I mean, they really need to think that one out a bit: life is so expensive that grown adults are defying the single strongest evolutionary urge because it’s too much to handle financially.
      And don’t even get me started on how a free high school education then could afford a life that my 7 years of college education (see: costly) and 19 years of work experience cannot touch even now in my 30s. I mean, we’re literally paying for the privilege to make less money than they did, and we’re being called lazy and ungrateful for so-called the opportunity.
      And we have a sense of entitlement. No.

    • P Ray
      March 8, 2016 at 8:02 am

      To the “ah, just live in China, I’m a white guy, it’s really cheap”-gang:
      [–]Sasselhoff 4 points 11 hours ago
      And it’s fucked here in China too. I work at a foreign company making a foreign wage that is light years beyond the average Chinese person, and there is no way in hell that even I could afford to purchase a house here (not that I would anyway though), even in middle of nowhere coal country. The only upside is that rent here is stupidly cheap…I could quite literally rent my current place for about 50 years before I would come equal to the purchase price.
      The only way the men here are able to buy a house, and you must buy a house to be able to get married (and a car for that matter), is to have had their parents save up for their entire lives and buy one for them. Otherwise it is literally impossible for the average Chinese person to buy a house.
      The most amazing part is that there are thousands of completely empty houses (totally empty, as in concrete walls, no floors, etc) because the wealthy (well, wealthier) have been buying them for investment as it’s one of the only forms of investment they can participate in aside from the rigged stock market (not allowed to invest overseas).

    • P Ray
      March 8, 2016 at 10:17 am

      Nice unexpected ending at the end of this comment thread:
      [–]Thread_lover 2655 points 1 day ago
      Funny how it’s the older crowd that calls us coddled.
      There’s a phenomenon, whereby people begin to talk badly about those they treated badly, in order to justify the treatment.
      [–]baby_bomb_squad 1583 points 1 day ago*
      Boomers got the biggest handout of all time which is a prosperous economy
      People with below average education and intelligence got above average paying jobs right out of highschool. Back then employers didn’t have all the leverage, now it’s “you’re lucky you’re even getting paid” “you’re lucky you even have a job”
      Edit: Changed easily negligible grammar issues to facilitate discussion. I h8 u grammar nazis u r all petty af!
      [–]treehuggerguy 514 points 1 day ago
      A prosperous economy plus their parents were able to buy affordable homes and get an education through the GI bill.
      My parents are baby boomers. For both of them their parents were able to break the cycle of poverty because of the GI bill.
      [–]Seithin 355 points 1 day ago
      The GI bill might be true for the US (I wouldn’t know), but it’s important to emphasize that the current situation between baby boomers and the younger generation go much deeper than a single bill, as this is a problem (as seen in the article too) that goes beyond the US, where there were no GI bills.
      Baby boomers inherited an economy before globalization really kicked in, and managed to profit off of that. Corporations 40-50 years ago couldn’t threat to move production elsewhere because it a) wasn’t economically feasible and b) it just simply wasn’t done. This allowed certain jobs to stay local and allow people who weren’t necessarily brilliant in school to still find a good job with good benefits and create a solid life from an early age, without having to compete with everyone for it.
      Nowadays, corporations have the power of not being restricted by borders – and thus laws – the same way they used to, and this has swung the power pendulum towards them and away from politicians and governments, who increasingly have to pay lip service to corporations to avoid a mass exodus of jobs (which would destroy the economy and lose them their jobs).
      In short, this is a trend that goes beyond a single bill or country. Instead, it is a trend we see all over the western world. And at the end of the day it comes down to the question of sovereignty. The US can’t dictate the rules that Chinese workers are to work under, but corporations are allowed to exist, work, profit and pay taxes in a myriad of complex schemes that transcend the borders between the two. Their flexibility allows them to profit off both societies without necessarily paying much back to either. And unless we somehow fix that conundrum, we’ll see the trend continue until such a time that the rest of the world catch up to western living standards.

      [–]fortheloveofbob 60 points 1 day ago
      the rest of the world catch up to western living standards
      Or perhaps until western living standards lower to third world levels?

      • P Ray
        March 9, 2016 at 7:05 am

        And we come back to what dissention/Advocatus foresaw:
        “Many CONservatives and LIEbertarians love to give bullshit advice such as- “Pull yourself by your bootstraps”, “You should have saved money”, “Thrift is the door to riches” etc.

        But ask yourself a simple fact-based question- Given that the median per-capita income in the USA is $ 26,363/ year, can most people save a worthwhile amount of money?”

      • P Ray
        March 9, 2016 at 7:27 am

        Pretty sure this is the “hire women first” mentality at work.
        [–]Jonnycbad 6 points 1 day ago
        Masters Degree in neuroscience living in NYC, making $32k as a research assistant. Best friend has an associates in liberal arts, does media management at a company that makes targeted advertisements on social media, makes 90k. What is higher education for?

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