Home > Critical Thinking, Current Affairs, Dystopia, Musings, Philosophy sans Sophistry, Reason, Secular Religions, Skepticism > Future of One Ethno-Religious Group in USA is Not Looking Bright: 3

Future of One Ethno-Religious Group in USA is Not Looking Bright: 3

In the previous part of this series, I talked about how the obsessions of a certain ethno-religious group with maintaining their public image while often behaving like assholes and mixing religion with nationalism is guaranteed to end badly. Let us now talk about why the conflation of religio-cultural identity with nationalism has a tendency to end badly and why secondary and tertiary downstream effects of such a disaster are much bigger than most people realize- especially for the group in question. But before we go there, let us quickly talk about the origins of modern nationalism and the many problems it caused in the 20th century, including a bit about how older empires and countries managed to function remarkably well (in many cases for centuries at a time) without even a hint of nationalism.

Contrary to what some of you might believe, nationalism as we understand it today is a recent phenomenon that came into being after modern nation-states came into existence. Prior to that, you could have large stable empires and even countries but without the nationalism we associate with such entities. So, an entity such as the roman empire was far more decentralized than most people today can imagine. Sure.. it did have a common set of basic laws and rules, architectural plans, lots of intra-empire trade etc. But the people within that empire (roman and non-roman) did not see themselves as part of a single nation. Rather they saw themselves as as subjects of the same empire and had considerable freedom to follow their old gods and maintain their social structures as long as they did not claim that their ways were the only correct ones.

This is why empires such as the Roman and Ottoman or the many Chinese dynasties which lasted for hundreds of years even though their populations (even in China) were much more ethnically heterogeneous than many modern nation states. To put it another way, systems of governance where there are some uniform laws and a degree of administrative commonality can function very nicely even if there is a pretty high degree of ethno-cultural heterogeneity. Which brings us to the real reason why modern nation states (after 1850s) tried to sell the scam of nationalism to their populations. It comes down to raising large armies of conscripted soldiers for fighting large wars and help expand their respective empires- something which was seen as necessary in that era. That is why nationalism, as we know it today, arose in the colonial states of western Europe and the apartheid country of USA. Yes.. that is why.

Of course, one interesting side-effect of creating bullshit national identities is that they facilitate armed conflict. There is a reason why WW1, WW2, the Armenian Genocide, Greek Genocide in Turkey, Holocaust and a ton of other wars in Eastern Europe occurred in the narrow time-span from 1890 to 1950. It is also why post-WW2 Europe is a far less nationalistic place than in it used to be between 1870-1945.But what does any of this have to do with the dim future of a certain ethno-religious group in USA? What can history teach about the results of nationalism, especially ethno-religious nationalism? Well.. for starters, the side that is numerically inferior will always get walloped by the numerically superior side- even if it takes some time and a few false starts. And this makes perfect sense once you realize that nationalism was always a tool for winning wars and conquering new territories. But it gets worse from here..

The numerically smaller side will not only be ultimately defeated, but will also lose a lot of the territory it used to hold. While technology can stave off the day of reckoning for a few decades, its spread ultimately dooms the numerically inferior side. Israel has not been able to decisively win a land war since the mid 1980s- something it could do with ease a decade before that. We known how their little 2006 misadventure in Lebanon ended. Or take the example of Armenia, whose present area is a faction of what used to Armenian-majority regions used to be prior to WW1. Or look at all the lands lost by Serbians since the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Unlike most people who will tell you whatever you want to hear, I will tell you stuff you don’t like to hear. But what is the relevance of any of this to the future of one enthno-religious group in USA?

Well.. it comes down to who they, or the more visible and vocal members of their group, identify with. Prior to 1945, the majority of this group in USA (and some other western countries) did identify with their religion or culture- more of the later than former. However the vast majority of them did not associate their identity with a physical nation or land area. But how does associating yourself with a specific area of land change anything. Well.. as it turns out, going from an almost purely ethno-religious group to one increasingly defined by association with a piece of land makes other see you as a nation. Now this is not a bad idea if there are hundreds of millions others such as yourself on an area with a decent amount of natural resources. But what if there are only a few million of you and people like yourself have not been historically a liked group?

To make a long story short, it is not advantageous for a historically disliked group with a small population size to become their own nation. It might work OK in the short term, but everything we know about nationalism and especially how it creates and intensifies conflict between groups tells us that the numerically smaller group will always lose in the end- even if it has nuclear weapons. But how does this connect with the future of that group in USA? Let me put it this way.. in prior decades people of that group supported that nation because they felt a kinship with their persecuted co-religionists. However they never stopped seeing themselves as part of the country in which they were born. Over the past twenty to thirty years, an increasing number of that group (especially the visible and vocal types) see themselves as a separate nation within USA.

More importantly, this trend has been noticed by a large percentage of people who do not belong to said ethno-religious group. It also does not help that, today, the group in question is over-represented in the category of greedy assholes. Some of you might be aware that in the past this greedy asshole category used to be full of people with WASPish surnames. Today it is.. well.. different. The guy currently trying to buy the presidency is an asshole billionaire called Michael Bloomberg. One of the most egregious examples of sexual abuse in Hollywood was allegedly committed by somebody known as Harvey Weinstein. One of the biggest financial backers for Donald Trump during 2016 is a billionaire known as Sheldon Adelson. The ex-CEO of Goldman-Sachs, whose company was behind some of the worst shenanigans which resulted in global financial Crisis of 2008, is a charming person known as Lloyd Blankfein.. the same guy who is on record as saying that his company did god’s work. I could go on..

My point is that pulling off this shit in a system which is already experiencing rapid terminal decline (USA) when you are both a small minority as well as increasingly seen by others as an actual nation within a nation might not end well. Since I do not belong to one of the monotheistic religions or believe in any other religion, I have no dog in this fight. Just making an observation based on what I can observe and my understanding of history. Might write more on topic based on responses. Have a feeling there may be a few..

What do you think? Comments?

  1. February 15, 2020 at 12:41 am

    regardless of the specifics of the modern situation, the Tribe has always behaved sociologically as if they were Borderline Personality Disordered.

    for current example, listen to the full tapes of the Amber Heard / Johnny Depp.

    functionally, this means that *no matter* how well a nation might treat the Jews, the Jew will nevertheless attack their host unceasingly … and then blame the host for “making them” attack the host.

    this doesn’t start with the USS Liberty or the numerous instances of Jews being involved in spy rings against the US. this doesn’t even have anything to do with the Christianity, since it long predates the birth of Christ. and it’s recorded in the scriptures of the Jews themselves.

    before WW2 was even over and while no less than Winston Churchill was advocating for a Jewish state in the Palestine, the Jews murdered Baron Moyne of the UK. and this is after England had fought two wars with China so that the Sassoon family could enrich themselves with the opium trade and innumerable Jews had been accepted into English high society.

    prior to WW1, Jews declared a societal war against Germany, one of the nations in which they had been overwhelmingly accepted.

    Jews played a critical part in the Muslim conquering of Andalusia, betraying numerous Christian cities to the Muslim invaders. this is why, after the Reconquista, Jews were purged from Hispania.

    the pagan Romans expelled the Jews three different times, once over a century before 0 AD.

    and of course, Jonah Chapter 3 ( the whole book actually ) describes the attitude of many Jews perfectly. God has sent Jonah to warn Nineveh to repent of their sins or He will destroy them.

    Jonah refuses … because Nineveh is Goy … and Jonah is afraid that if they repent, God will have mercy and spare them … and fail to genocide the whole Goy city. Jonah is *so* desperate not to warn Nineveh that he spends the first two chapters trying to avoid going towards Nineveh and / or get himself killed so that he cannot follow the instructions of his own God.

    this is in the Holy Writ of the Jews.

    • Gp
      February 15, 2020 at 1:48 pm

      Can don’t think this commentary of urs applies to Sikhs and Muslims in India too?

      • Gp
        February 15, 2020 at 1:49 pm

        *do you think

      • February 16, 2020 at 10:47 pm

        Gp February 15, 2020 at 1:48 pm
        Can don’t think this commentary of urs applies to Sikhs and Muslims in India too?

        i don’t know much about how the Sikhs might behave, whether in India or elsewhere. i do know that the Old Testament specifically warns about allowing strangers to live amongst your people ( speaking to the ancient Hebrews ) … because they will band together against the majority and manipulate things to their own advantage. if you read the OT as a treatise on “societal best practices”, and then INVERT everything the OT tells you to not do

        that also describes the behavior of international Jewry pretty well, when they live amongst the goyim.

        as for Islam, they are commanded by the Koran to Jihad and war of elimination against all other faiths, except for Judaism and Christianity, whom they are commanded to subjugate and force to pay the Jizya tax.

        as for India itself, haven’t i been seeing news that the Hindus have been burning Churches over the last decade?

    • (((They))) Live
      February 15, 2020 at 7:24 pm

      Churchill was owned by the tribe, which is why he turned down what was the far better deal on offer from the Germans, when (((They))) can’t bribe someone they blackmail or murder them, which is what Epstein was doing for Israel. If you had a video of a politician having sex with an under age girl, what would that be worth, and if his wife was a possible future president, what is the video worth then ?

    • Yusef
      February 16, 2020 at 11:16 am

      Jonah’s pride had been hurt previously when he’d warned other cities of their imminent demise unless they repented….They repented, nothing happened to them, and Jonah looked like a fool. He thought the same thing would happen for Nineveh, and he didn’t want to once again look like a fool.

      It is true Jonah’s self image and pride were more important to Jonah than the well being of Nineveh and being obedient to God. However, this sort of crap isn’t specific to either Jonah or the Jews. It’s there in all of us if we have the courage to look and see, and the honesty to admit what’s there.

      When we start to make it all about how nasty, rotten, and greedy the damned Jews are, as if we aren’t all deeply flawed, it starts to make me nervous. We love to pretend we’re pure and some other group, whom we will scapegoat, are the source of all the troubles. It ain’t so, and we better realize it. Please note this is not making excuses or defending the Jews amidst their evident nastiness, greed, war mongering, and fascism. It is more about getting a bit of sophistication shown in dealing with these affairs because we don’t really want anyone to get annihilated, right? We don’t want to scapegoat anyone, right?

      We want to get things back on track for Americans, but that’s going to involve getting things back on track in the middle east, too, and the way the US uses Israel and Israel uses the US is ridiculous……It is also ridiculously important to the world situation, and that’s what I’m talking about. Let’s get Israel and the Jews back in perspective, which means reorienting American foreign policy in the middle east for the wider interests of most in the middle east, and the wider interests of the average American who simply is not served by making Israel the largest recipient of foreign aid or turning a blind eye to what Israel does and has done.

      • February 16, 2020 at 11:02 pm

        Yusef February 16, 2020 at 11:16 am
        Jonah’s pride had been hurt previously when he’d warned other cities of their imminent demise unless they repented

        while this is not described in the text, this is a hypothetical answer as to reason for Jonah fleeing to Tarshish in Jonah 1:3

        Yusef February 16, 2020 at 11:16 am
        He thought the same thing would happen for Nineveh, and he didn’t want to once again look like a fool.

        however, this blatantly contradicts the text.

        Jonah 3:6 to 4:4

        chapter 3 is the preaching to the city and the repentance of the king and nobles and all the people.

        chapter 4 is Jonah’s declaration that he would rather die than see the city spared of God’s wrath and God specifically asking Jonah why Jonah is so desperate not to permit Nineveh to repent.

        perhaps you are merely mistaken.

        perhaps, as your name implies, you are Muslim and are prone to their excessive worship of the prophets … even though many of the OT prophets are shown to make errors and even intentionally act against both God and the Jews on many occasions.

        but when God Himself disagrees with your characterization, you might wish to reconsider your exegesis.

      • Yusef
        February 17, 2020 at 2:10 pm

        All of the Old Testament prophets are depicted as deeply flawed, not very able, and certainly not heroes. None are worthy of worship, or even deep admiration, really. Even Moses is depicted as flawed. God allows him to see the Promised Land, but Moses is forbidden to enter.

        The point is the prophets are nothing without the hand of God guiding them, and without their willingness to be guided. This is clearly the case with Jonah. For whatever reasons, Jonah no longer wants to fulfill God’s Will and attempts to flee God! If you think the Old Testament is depicting this as worthy behavior, I have to point out what happens to Jonah as he flees God.

        Jonah goes to a port where he pays for a ride to what Jonah believes is the end of the world. God won’t be able to find him there. The sailors are suspicious of him; he has an evil feel about him. IIRC, Jonah has to pay a large amount of money to induce them to let him board. There’s a big storm, the sailors know this is due to Jonah, so they throw him overboard to save themselves. Jonah is then swallowed by a whale.

        You don’t think all this flatters Jonah as a great man or an exemplar of his religion, do you? You don’t really believe this credits Jonah’s unwillingness to help the people of Nineveh? Do you believe this shows the God of the Old Testament as one who thought it was A-OK for Jonah to not care about the sinners of Nineveh, disobey God, and then sneak out on God? You do understand it would be a terror to be pitched overboard into drowning waves, and then be swallowed alive by what Jonah would regard plain and simple as a monster. It is not, as it appears in the Old Testament, the cute and heart-warming story for small children it is now. (I blame this transformation more on commerce, “Christians”, and the general diminution of intellect and soul than on anything the “Jews” have done.) It is a punishment and the administering of a lesson of how not to be, for us all.

        If you want to find reasons to hate, you’ll never be at a loss. If you want to find reasons to love and be good, you may spend a lifetime and not succeed.

    • hoipolloi
      February 16, 2020 at 10:28 pm

      @Roberto Mando: “…this (antipathy )doesn’t even have anything to do with the Christianity, since it long predates the birth of Christ. and it’s recorded in the scriptures of the Jews themselves.”

      Beautiful summation. The other parts of your comment are equally insightful. I look for goodwill on all sides. Thanks.

  2. Jack Donovan
    February 15, 2020 at 1:45 am

    We at the wolves of vineland thought you was an hindu muffin. Didn’t know you was one of our goys…

    Hope you aren’t tricking us to get some mangina like Milo Y and Rosh V did. We was rayyyped, rayyyped I say…

    See Hayle

    14 88 !!

    Not str8 !!

  3. Lewis from Afula
    February 15, 2020 at 2:49 pm

    Yes. When times are good, the majority is not too bothered about this ethno-religious group. However, when times are bad, the majority gets very angry towards the ethnoc-religious group. I keep telling myco-religionists in Uncle Scam to leave that sinking ship and move over to Israel, but they refuse to see the truth.

  4. hoipolloi
    February 17, 2020 at 6:19 am

    @Gp: “…this commentary … applies to Sikhs and Muslims in India too?”

    Latest news indicates that Sikhs are going to be counted separately from people of Indian origin in the upcoming U.S. census. We can discuss more if AD brings up a post with south Asian issues, otherwise this will be off topic here. Thanks.

  5. Gern Blanderson
    February 18, 2020 at 5:36 am

    The Roman system was the first type of world governance system, and it worked for hundreds of years. After it failed, then there were tribal wars and smaller nation wars until the Catholic church became the next type of world governance system. In the Renaissance, there became religious fracturing and then the wars in Europe started again and continued until WW2. Our current governance and large uniform administrative structures are the United Nations, NATO,European Union and world trade organizations.

    All of these systems eventually break down because the elites will exploit the systems for their own benefit and this angers the common people in the tribes/nations. Currently we are seeing the backlash against the elites and seeing a breakdown in our governance structures. Hopefully the current systems and correct themselves before we have civil wars and nation wars.

  6. Ted
    February 24, 2020 at 7:20 pm

    One does not have to go back to Biblical times and try to draw a direct line to events today to think, “Are you sure this is a good idea?” One of the mistakes (among many) prominent MOT (not all) make is they believe their own hype – they do think they are more clever than their neighbors and that development progresses when they are at the top of the pyramid. Of course, you could point out Nordic countries,South Korea, and Japan – where they are not a factor, and yet they have developed modern, wealthy societies with safety nets (both governmental and familial/societal). Japan’s contributions to world economics is well established, but even its pop culture makes inroads into US culture. With the exception of some fringe anime, most parents do not freak out if their kids get into K-pop or Pokemon. The Nordic countries developed economically through the sale of goods and services, not financial engineering. So, even in down markets, they are not saddled with tremendous debts.

    In the US, plenty of people, notice that a group that constitutes 2% of the population seems to be over-represented in the halls of gov’t, the media, law firms, and academia. Not everyone who notices this is looking to engage in acts of violence, but they do withdraw from those arenas where MOT over-represented. So, plenty of talented young students who cannot get into the Ivy League, despite having the grades, turn to excellent schools outside the system. And yes, there are plenty, whether private (U of Chicago, Northwestern, Rice) or public (Univ of Virginia, UCLA, UC-Berkeley, UT-Austin).

    People do not begrudge them their success when it is clear to people – those in medicine, hard sciences, etc. But when that success comes in fields they tend to specialize in, with outsized pay packages that have no relation to the quality of the product – people notice. Younger MOTs often notice this, because they have worked alongside smart capable classmates and co-workers, who often go overlooked. When the film, “The Social Network” started getting various award nominations, the actor Jesse Eisenberg, in a moment of frankness, said award season is just, “Jews awarding Jews”.

    The Wall Street crash was the breaking point for many people, who would otherwise not care about them. True, the heads of the firms were a UN of ethnicities, but people notice the federal government does not go to the same emergency measures when other industries are about to collapse. That was bad enough, but to then see no one do time – except Madoff, who only got caught when his scheme went bust. Arguing, “Well, what they did was unethical, but not illegal” just begs the question – why? Why are the laws written in such a fashion? Campaign cash. The elections may run according to one man, one vote. But the campaigns? Whoever writes the check is who gets listened to.

    This is most clear in foreign policy. Since 1973, starting with the Yom Kippur war, the US has been joined at the hip to a nation of no strategic value to the US. Why? Their troops have never fought alongside Americans, unlike Arabs, Turks, and Kurds (and they bring their own headaches). Considering Israel has nuclear weapons, it makes even less sense. Yet, year after year we send American men & women to “stabilize” the region. We’re not doing a good job, are we?

    Contrast that to SE Asia. The US finally ended its military wars in the region in 1973, after 20+ years of frustration and failure. Imagine if a group of expatriate Vietnamese had a hold on US policy in the region, and kept the US stuck there. Instead, it is not a destination for American investment, tourism, a source of immigrants, etc.

    Trump ran on a sly campaign of trying to downplay their influence. But his tax bill, his continued bellicosity in the Middle East suggest he never meant it. A tax bill that rewards financial shell games, but does not encourage any real investment, He continues to combat unions, many of whom supported him. People notice.

    There will be no expulsion or persecution. What will happen has already happened – the occasional Tucker Carlson screed about how Iran is not a threat to the US, that finance is not the only measure of the economy. It’s Asians who resent the efforts of “civil rights groups” to lessen the role of test scores in school admissions, in favor of more nebulous attributes that, guess which group will possess in greater numbers?

    The smarter ones know they are privileged. He may not win the presidency, but when Bernie Sanders, an old school Jew, tell AIPAC to kiss his ass. BTW, plenty of black voters & office holders noticed Jewish Dems like Chuck Schumer and Mike Bloomberg were criticizing Obama about the Iran Deal.

    It is never a good idea for the elite of any nation to think it is separate from the rest.

  7. P Ray
    March 27, 2020 at 9:19 am

    Well … this is like a version of the movie (((THEY DON’T LIVE))):
    Why are ten times as many Jews Covid-19 victims? Community leaders urge followers to ‘preserve life’ as figures reveal one in 20 Britons killed by coronavirus are from the religion
    Board of Deputies tells Jews in UK to ‘stay home unless you absolutely cannot’
    It has explained how pandemic presents a particular challenge to ‘communities
    25 coronavirus victims in Britain are Jewish from a total of 465 as of Wednesday
    Sources say they are confident most Jews are abiding by Government guidance

    Is the virus anti-Semitic? One can only guess.

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